Attitudes Driving Newsgroups:
ÀÀÀÀÀÀÀ Report #1
Subject: Taking steps against bad drivers
Date: 1998/01/28
I remember last year I browsed this user group and I actually saw losers try to
"defend" tailgating. People who do this and make other aggressive
moves on the road, and those who "defend" such moves, can be thanked
for existing to be the back side of the IQ bell curve. In Phoenix bad driving
is such a problem that mild, basic first steps against such behavior are being
proposed in the state legislature.
[ Dave Simpson ]
ÀÀÀÀÀÀÀ
Comments
I thought that there always will be two sides to the story, as indicated
in this particular posting. Mr. Simpson placed many postings on this subject;
he is advocating the legislation for penalties for "Road Rage"
offenders. I agree with his actions because I have stated before that cars are
WEAPONS that can kill someone and I want to make the streets safre for my family
and everyone else who drives defensively.
This indicates that our society is proving Newton's second law of
thermodynamics-- things in time will turn to chaos. It shows that we are and
individualistic culture where the "I" rules over the "We."
This is an indication that punishing the offender will cause offenders to find
new ways to get around that legislation. Our society is not geared toward
collective thinking which means that it will be difficult to unlearn the habits
and evils that plague our streets. I do, however think that htis situation is
no impossible to overcome. We can only do things in small steps, but let it
begin with you and me. I think that the domino effect can work, but it has to
start somewhere. When you and I speed and raise hell, we are part of the
problem, not the solution.
Report #2
"Road Rage" Bills Target Overly Aggressive Drivers
The Arizona Republic Wednesday, January 28, 1998
If there's one thing worse than crawling along on a jam-packed Valley freeway
at rush hour, it's watching the clown behind you drive inches from your back
bumper before swerving to the shoulder to pass.
But don't reach for your weapon. Grab the car phone and call the cops.
Under two proposals that picked up powerful legislative endorsements Tuesday,
drivers could be cited by police for driving too aggressively. The measures are
designed to cut down on the growing carnage on the roads caused by "road
rage."
One bill would define aggressive driving and set up stiff penalties, including
a 30-day license suspension for first-time offenders. The second would make it illegal
to drive across the white-lined triangles at freeway ramps, known as
"gore" points. The word is derived from a triangular pattern, as on a
piece of land or a garment, not from a description of an accident scene. DPS
Officer Doug Knutson was killed earlier this month when a pickup plowed into
him as he stood in a gore point on the Red Mountain Freeway.
Proposals designed to curb "road rage"
"While we cannot undo the tragedies of the past, we can enact laws to
change our future," Gov. Jane Hull said at a news conference Tuesday
morning. "The issue of aggressive driving is serious. And this bill will
leave no doubt about it."
Hull was joined by House Speaker Jeff Groscost in supporting the proposal.
Senate President Brenda Burns is generally supportive of the bills, but hasn't
had a chance to review the details.
Supporters say the aggressive-driving legislation gives police new and needed
tools to prevent road rage. Drivers could be charged with aggressive driving if
they are cited for a combination of any three of the following charges:
* Reckless driving.
* Excessive speed.
* Passing on the right or on the shoulder.
* Tailgating.
* Failure to signal lane changes, improper lane changes, or failure to signal.
* Failure to yield the right of way.
* Running a red light or stop sign.
A first-time offender would face a misdemeanor charge. But a second conviction
would be a Class 6 felony with an automatic license suspension of one year.
Alberto Gutier, director of the Governor's Office of Community and Highway
Safety, pointed to a AAA study showing that people are more afraid of road rage
than drunken driving.
Nationally, the American AUtomobile Association reports that aggressive drivers
have caused 10,037 incidents from 1990 to 1996, with 218 people being killed.
"The problem with aggressive driving is that it leads to road rage,"
Gutier said. Sen. Tom Freestone, R-Mesa, who is co-sponsoring the bills,
agreed.
The cost of the proposals is unknown. By making it illegal to drive across gore
points, the state would have to re-stripe freeway ramps using yellow paint
instead of white. Hull said money can be found to pay for the changes.
Comments
I agree with his ideas. We need legislation that makes it tougher on the
offenders, but I can see underlying causes that are not addressed in this
matter. The moral development of this nation has deteriorated and every level
of society will suffer the consequences of moving away from the original intent
of this country's founding fathers. Morality has been in question many times
not only in Washington, but in every home on America. The reason for this is
people are wondering for themselves what is allowable and what is right. The
law is supposed to tell Americans what is allowable, but the inherent nature of
humankind is to find ways around constricting measures. What holds you down is
against your freedom. As we can see with the road rage issue, speed limits
constrict your freedom to go as fast as your car is able. I agree that we need
to punish with new legislation, but as in the past, new laws breed new
lawbreakers.
I can see that we are punishing the punisher but are we really educating the
unpunished? I remember in the movie, Con Air, that actor John Cusack
mentioned that, "Society can be measured by its criminals," taking
that saying from Fyodor Dostoevsky. When we just punish the offenders, we are
essentially slapping their hand. Yet, we are not teaching our culture the
responsibilities of driving safely. George Orwell stated that "Knowledge
is power." People need to arm themselves with the knowledge of safety as
well as the consequences.
Report #3
Subject: Re: Lousy drivers (people) on roads
Date: 1998/01/28
À
Some very good points here in this article (and the proposed legislation
definitions), but as I had mentioned in a different NG, nothing will change as
long as people *think* they have a right to drive. A driver's license is firmly
established as a PRIVILEGE by the issuing government, and thus the driver is
subject to all the controlling laws that coincide with this privilege. When a
REAL driving test is instituted, one that can only be passed by fully
attentive, competent drivers, you will see a drop in road rage, aggressive
driving, and stupidity accidents.
This proposed legislation is trying to retrain drivers "after the
fact". You're not going to get a middle-aged driver to stop using the
shoulder if he's been getting away with it for 15 years. There is so much
emphasis on being anti-police when it comes to traffic - this is where I think
people are believing driving is a right and government is too controlling, and
this is where the mistake is being made.
I
agree again with this author's statements. He brings up a good point about
retraining "after the fact." In the general laws of learning, there
is a theory called, "retardation of acquisition." The basic premise
of this theory is that when something is learned, it makes it difficult to
relearn it's opposite. What this means to drivers is that if you learn how to drive
aggressively, relearning how to drive passively will be overshadowed by
aggression, making it difficult to learn passive driving. This rule has been
tested in animals and the same goes with us. Teaching someone to drive slower
might not be the best measure.
We
must understand that people drive aggressively by habit and that is as hard to
break as smoking or drug addiction. Americans in general have an affinity to
break the law. Breaking the law is NORMAL in this country. Disagree? How many
of you ever drank alcohol under the age of 21? Or ever go over the speed limit?
According to the law, the LIMIT is 55 and going 56 is technically
speeding and we can actually get fined $4.00 for it. Worse yet, we are
inconvenienced when an officer pulls us over for going a measely 15 miles an
hour over the limit. Don't be, because breaking the law is easy to do, no
matter how small.
Subject: Re: Taking steps against bad drivers
Date: 1998/01/28
ÀI
remember last year I browsed this user group and I actually saw losers try to
"defend" tailgating. People who do this and make other aggressive
moves on the road, and those who "defend" such moves, can be thanked
for existing to be the back side of the IQ bell curve.
Tailgating in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, otherwise the entire
population of Germany would have been killed off. If you decide to tool around
at 100mph on the left lane on the autobahn, people WILL tailgate you (some,
like "Butthead" will do it at less than 1/3 car length) until you get
out of the way.
In Phoenix bad driving is such a problem that mild, basic first steps against
Not really, the 10 is great unless you are one of those asswipes who drive 70
in a 75 on the left lane. Then yes, your life will probably be made very
difficuly by all the motorists that you managed to pissed off.
such behavior are being proposed in the state legislature.
[ Dave Simpson ]
Ah, woad wage. Yeah sure. The problem is left lane hogs. If they hadn't refused
to yield to a faster car approaching them on the left lane, the guy behind
would not have to resort to 1)pass on the right 2)tailgate 3)flash his brights
4) passing the lane hogger WIOLENTLY (usually happens when the lane hog give
the bird sign or flash brake lights). Lots of these so called road rage thing
can be completely avoided by simply follow the slower traffic keep right rule.
Also, nothing is more infuriating than
for a lane hog to flash his brake lights instead of moving the hell over. I
have witness a lane hog almost got ran off the road by a pissed off dude in his
old pickup cuz the lane hog flashed his brake lights instead of moving over.
And as for your whining of people tailgating you in traffic, gimme a break. In
all major cities in the U.S. during rush hours, that's the norm. And really, if
the traffic is moving at 5mph at best, why are you worrying about the guy
behind you supposedly "tailgating" you? [ Andy ]
[ http://www.tconl.com/~hartman/speedo.html
]
Comments
Like I said before, there are two sides to every conflict. The
"rager" has spoken, and he has a few things to say about the people
who get in his way. Of course I disagree with him in the fact that aggression,
as stated by psychologists, has "the intent to hurt" attached to its
definition. Aggression breeds hostility and even though there is no true
causation, aggression is one of many factors that lead to hostility. I had
mentioned earlier that selfishness is probabbly the #1 psychological disease in
America, which leads to depression, anger, suicide, and everything where WE are
wronged, WE are right, they're in OUR way, or WE are not at fault. I remember
an old proverb asking, " Which would you rather be, always right or always
corrected?" Always being right makes for some lonely days ahead.
Report #5
Subject: Road Rage - prevention better than cure.
Date: 1998/02/25
ÀI
was almost the victim of road rage the other day, although the incident occured
in a parking lot. The gentleman who almost hit my parked car while turning into
the adjacent parking spot did not take too kindly to my suggestion that he take
greater care. He immediately became defensive. I defused the situation by
apologizing for "over-reacting" to his apparent lack of parking
finesse. If I had become aggressive as well, the result may have been a
physical altercation. I strive to drive by the following Golden Rules:
1. Let impatient drivers pass. You'll soon catch them up. They will have revved
the hell out of their cars, increasing wear and tear, not to mention their
blood pressure.
2. Be courteous where PRACTICABLE! Courtesy at the wrong time can prove as
dangerous as aggressiveness.
3. Listen to relaxing music that complements driving. I love punk, hardcore,
and some metal, yet do not listen to these in the car, as they make me
over-confident, aggressive, euphoric, and therefore more likely to cause an
accident. My choice of driving music is as far removed from punk, etc, as you
can imagine: Seventies disco and other catchy tunes!!! No..I'm not a split
personality!!
4. Always expect the WORST of other drivers! That way, when they do make an
error, you won't be disappointed.
5. Travel at a speed consistent with common sense. The sign might read 80,
which is fine on a sunny, dry day, but lethal on a wet day.
6. Use cunning to escape from tailgaters playing games. These WANKERS are
driving with their dicks, not with their brains. Don't antagonize them. You
never know the mental state of these drivers. They may have just split up with
their lover, they may be bursting for a piss, have a bad case of haemorrhoids, or
simply be too FAR GONE to be of any use to man or beast.
7. Playing your Cd player too loud is an invitation to thieves. It's as though
your saying..Hey, arent' I cool! Check it out when I'm out. As Martin/Molloy
would say : "mistake gone wrong!"
8. Resist the temptation to follow the well-intentioned but often misdirected
advice of backseat drivers. Threaten to expel them from the vehicle if they
don't shut their cakehole. Best of all, drive on your own. I drive on my own
most of the time, and prefer it, as I can listen to my music and sing along,
swear(only if unavoidable, and of therapeutic value).
9. Using these principles, I hope to be able to maintain a safe and
incident-free driving record until the day I retire from driving.
Any comment, suggestions?
Comments
Well, possible solutions to driving among the road ragers can prove
useful as well as safe. I have one problem with a comment in this posting: He
had mentioned driver driving with their "male genitals," which
suggests that road ragers are male. Although common sense will tell you that
they are majority male, there are female ragers as well. We can't forget
that women have the capacity to get angry as well and if anyone wants to argue
that fact, let's sit down and watch My Best Friend's Wedding.
One
of my friends mentioned that it was women that started the road rage because
their inability to drive. I will not agree with that because I don't want to
get hurt. We realize that there are times when thingss aren't worth the extra
effort to tell someone how angry you are because they can't park or are rude
about it. My advice is this: Be on your merry way and forget the person who had
a bad day. It really is not worth getting hurt or killed just in case that
person decides to take their bad day out on you.
Subject: Re: Driving in Austin
Date: 1998/02/24
À
Dusty Rhodes wrote: Another thing that bothers me is all the whining about road
rage. Get your 55 MPH driving butt out of the left lane on the freeway and
you'll be amazed at the reduction in drivers tailgating, honking, giving you
the finger, etc. Once again, a component of the basic speed law in ALL states
is, "Slower traffic keep right." There is no mention of speed. Yet
every day you see idiots merge onto the freeway at 55 or less, then cut
immediately for the left lane.
I don't really see this happen very often. What I usually see is that there is
a certain type of person who wants to go faster than everyone else is going no
matter how fast that is. These people tailgate regardless of what lane they're
in. You are in their way. Period. A humorous side of this is to see two of this
kind of driver barreling down the road one behind the other in an insane
competition to be in front.
Another anomaly I've noticed is one lane syndrome. I kind of enjoy this one.
Drive around town and you may notice that often, when pulling up to a red
light, a vast majority of the traffic will choose one lane or the other. I like
this because it let's me choose the empty lane and avoid lots of traffic. Keep
it up, folks.
Ideally everyone would start to roll forward at the same time when the light
turns green instead of waiting one-by-one for the car in front of you to start
to move. I'm hoping that evolution will condition us genetically to be better
drivers. No doubt this will happen in my lifetime. -
Comments
Here we go again with the case of the defense. Road Rage Kills. There is
no dispute with that. I will mention it again: There are things that are not
worth the effort to pursue. I also mean this for the people who drive the speed
limit in the left lane. You gotta know that at some point someone will ride up
on your tail and make you feel a bit edgy, but the simple thing to do is LET
HIM PASS!! Wow, what a concept, letting someone pass who is riding your
tail. Try it sometime.
Report #7
Subject: Re: Proposed New Indiana Traffic Laws
Date: 1998/02/23
[ SNIP - other drivel ]
So if you find yourself behind me, and I'm doing the speed limit, and you want
to get past me to cruise along at 90, tough shit. You have two choices: you can
take a deep breath, relax, obey the law, and get to your destination a few
minutes later. Or you can ride my ass, flash your lights, yell, scream, curse,
and make every obscene gesture in the book, raising your blood pressure a few
dozen points in the process. But it won't do you any good -- I ain't moving,
moron. Save yourself the aggravation.
Listen here jerk, you are the reason for road rage and aggressive driving. Who
appointed you to enforce the law ? You don't have a badge. It is @$$holes like
you who think you are better than everyone else and think that their $h!t don't
smell. Well, you are not any better than anyone else.
Maybe you will piss off the wrong person and he will run your @$$ off the road
and teach you a lesson to mind your own business.
BTW, are you another Volvo driver or drive a mini-van ?
Comments
This was my favorite posting. I liked the little rip he added at the end
about the Volvo or minivan. Still, the wrongdoer always wants to justify his
actions. I especially liked the minivan/Volvo touch because it reminds me of
the movie, The Rock. Dr. Goodspeed (Nick Cage) "Drives a Volvo, a
beige one." and it seems like everyone who drives a Volvo is a nerd. The
person who posted this message has a few things that need to be addressed and
he needs help.
AS
mentioned earlier, this man needs to be somewhere yesterday and people who
actually drive safely are like cones in the middle of the road. I think that
this guy is the type that likes to watch boxing, loves coors, and gambles a lot
on the NFL parlays. Additionally, this person, if presses hard enough can kill
a person if the boiling point is too high. My advice is to stay clear of this
type of driver because life is precios and people like this can take life from
you.
Report #8
Subject: Re: Tailgaters Re: Responsibility
Date: 1998/01/23
À
Unfortunately your comments are perpetuating the problem and are partially
responsible for the increase in the 'road rage' we see on the highways.
I spent seven years living in Germany and driving the Autobahn, most of the
time in areas without any speed restrictions. (Read NO SPEED LIMITS!) I used to
wonder why we couldn't enjoy that kind of freedom in this country until I
returned home and the evidence almost ran me off the roads. I felt safer in
Germany driving around well in excess of 100 MPH than I do here driving at 35+.
What it comes down to is that here in the U.S. it is an unregimented
free-for-all and U.S. drivers do not know how to drive! If they removed the
speed limits here in California it would be instant genocide!
The main reason they can get away with no speed limits in Germany is that the
driving laws are very regimented and the German Police enforce all the laws
with equal vigor. There is a certain driving etiquitte that is needed in order
to be able to drive at speed. In Germany it is against the law to pass someone
on the right, with the two exceptions being off-ramps and periods of heavy
traffic where cars are bumper-to-bumper and the lane or lanes to your right
might be moving faster than you. It is also against the law to sit in the fast
lane. The fast lane is strictly for passing. You move into the passing lane to
get around someone going slower than you and you move back over to the right to
make way for the next person that may be coming up behind to overtake you. Thus
there is no reason for tail-gating.
The Police enforce both those laws as
vigorously as they do speeding in the areas where speed limits do exist and it
makes sense to have them. Because of this you can move at a substantial speed
and be assured that you won't have to keep slowing down because of some idiot
either sitting in the fast lane totally oblivious to everything around him/her
or intentionally blocking you because they think they know better and feel that
they are going fast enough and you shouldn't be going any faster than they are.
Not having to worry about some moron coming up on your right when you are
trying to change lanes to the right is also a hugely welcome relief.
Granted much of this has changed since the Berlin Wall came down as the roads
have become a little more crowded and more areas are now under speed limits or
at least 'suggested' speed limits, but it still is a blast. The anger I feel
here at the stupidity of the motorists, I use the term loosely, all around me
is non-existant in Germany. The written and practical driving tests are a
complete joke. All you have to do is be breathing and you can get a license. In
Germany to get a license is the equivalent of passing a college-level class and
it casts almost as much as well. There, a license to drive is a privelege. Here
it is assumed to be a right.
Unfortunately, things here will never change. I grew up up here and I learned
to drive here and things were never this bad. Sure there are more people but
more people just means crowded roads and does not equate to stupid driver tricks.
The problem is bads laws, poor training and easily obtainable licenses,
poor/stupid concentration of laws enforced, e.g. how much wasted time is spent
enforcing that most heinous of crimes, commute lane violation when red-light
running is reaching epidemic proportions! The first affects no one and the
second has the potential to affect and kill everyone. Which one do you think
gets the most vigorous enforcement? If you chose commute lane violation you win
a cookie!
Up until recently the fine for violating the commute lane was more than double
that of running a red light. Life is cheap but God help you if you get caught
as a single in a commute lane! Allright...I'm off my soapbox now and no I have
never been busted for violating the sanctity of the commute lane so I have no
axe to grind if that is what you are wondering.
[ M. Piazza ]
Comments
This perspective was added to show that it is attitude, not speed
that governs the road. Germans drive faster than we do, but have no road rage.
Yet, studying them would not be a good idea because we are dealing with two
different animals: a German one and an American one. The German have a very
different lifestyle thatn we do. They love soccer. We hate it. They thnk
American Football is a disgrace to sports. They love to drive fast but have the
manners to do so. I can only imagine if a disease like road rage hits the
Autobahn. Carnage should be a result. Funny thought, they have no speed limits
and they drink beer out of gallon-sized glasses. What a cool country...
Subject: Re: SUV drivers are Dorks!!!!
Date: 1998/01/17
ÀNot all of them, of course, but yesterday we had our first
snowstorm and while I was motorvating I was caught in two traffic slowdowns.
The first was due to a Cherokee Special Edition moving at ridiculously low
speeds, even for the road condition, the second by a Pathfinder that must have
been in neutral and let the wind do the pushing. BTW, in case you're
interested, both drivers were early 30's females.
Figures.. It figures.. heheh. Want to have fun? If you just had your first
serious snowstorm wait about 3 days.. especially if there is any ice out.. then
visit your dealership row.. look behind them near the body shop area.. Count
the most SUV and 4x4's you have ever seen in your life! It used to be a game we
played in Seattle.. "Who's got more wrecks? The Toyota Dealership, the
Ford Dealership, or the Police parking lot?" (the latter sparked after
they lost 4 Burien patrol cars trying to catch a snowmobile on the street.. Up
to that point, the Snowmobile was driving safer than the cars and obeying all
the laws. hehe)
How to remove Road Rage: Make everyone drive a Miata at least once a week!
[ http://www.mindspring.com/~vdragon ]
Comments
I like his guy--blaming women. And men wonder why they are single and
can't get dates. As far as SUV's are concerned, I hear they can go pretty fast,
which says more about the driver than the vehicle. Again, the problem doesn't
lie with the people who drive safely, but the people who feel that the law is
not important to them.
Subject: Re: Speed limits and road design speeds
Date: 1998/01/28
ÀJust WHAT important facts are obscured beyond recognition? That
"Speed Kills" is a only propaganda?
The more kinetic energy, the harder it is to affect where an object is going to
be. Kinetic energy goes up with the square of the velocity. If most people
exceed a speed limit, the limit isn't needed for safety, and everybody knows
it; and setting limits like that is what leads drivers not to respect the laws.
You've got it backwards. A safe speed is
determined by things such as population density and amount of traffic. Then the
civil engineers, using a standard guideline, overbuild the road by 15%.
What standard guideline? Care to elaborate? How do you mean by
"overbuilding" the roads by 15%? Can you even do that?
Speed limits are only remotely a function of tire adhesion. They are primaraly
a function of sight distance, and if . To design a road for a higher speed,
they increase sight lines, to the point where a vehicle will be able to see an
obstruction in time to stop before hitting it. They post the limit at some
amount below that figure. (again, as a margin of safety) at 15% over the speed
limit, so people drive 15% over the speed limit. It "feels right."
Unfortunately, it's *not* right for the population density along the road.
The hypothesis behind this 15% guidelines is that it adds an extra margin of
safety. Half a century of carnage on our roads has proven this hypothesis to be
dead wrong.
Speed limits should reflect the speed at which most drivers feel comfortable
driving at. There you get the highest compliance rate and the least speed
variation between vehicles, which makes safest roads. Read up on the issue of
85th percentile rule. Well if 85% of the drivers feel comfortable driving at
75mph on a highway then so be it. Why do you speed-kills-proponents have to
make it 55mph or whatever to increase non-compliance and speed variation just
for the sake of it? Increased non-compliance means more traffic ticket revenue
to the Government, and increased speed variation means more collision and road
rage, which leads to injury.
Again, people feel "comfortable" at speeds that leave them unable to
cope with unexpected obstacles. They trust that just past the crest of the
hill, there isn't a semitrailer on its side, because most of the time, there
isn't one. When there is, we get pileups, and sometimes bodies to haul away.
Hell, people feel "comfortable" travelling thru residential
neighborhoods at speeds that leave them unable to stop for things that are in
the roadway legally, like a kid in a crosswalk.
Look at the record sized pileups in the california "sudden fog"
incidents -- Terrain keeps the start of the fog from their view, and so they
enter it at a high speed. Had they held their speeds to ones that were
compatible with sight distances, they would have been able to slow to a safe
speed BEFORE entering the fog bank. Replace the fog with a semi-trailer on its
side, or a sawlog dropping off its transport, and spanning the roadway, in
completely clear conditions, and you would get the same sort of chain reaction
carnage.
Comments
I'll comment that this is something out of the X Files archives.
Hey Mulder, the government is hiding this speed thing in the hangar next to the
aliens... The law is the most explicit set of rules we have in this country and
when they are not heeded, lives are lost and the roads aren't safe. It would be
interesting to find out if the roads are engineered with that 15% factor.